..In which 2fisted will make little to no sense.



I'm sorry? One woman in rural France is hardly a cautionary tale. Not compared to the millions of uninsured Americans that we're talking about. And, It's not actually the uninsured that form the biggest hole- it's the underinsured, and the completely immoral practices of insurance companies. The best analogy I can think of is if you had auto insurance that paid for your oil changes, but denied your claim if you were in an accident. US health insurers do just that- they cover charge you and your employer thousands (or more) a year in premiums, pay for doctors appointments, but don't pay for treatment if you actually get sick.

What about the immoral practice of forcing hundreds of millions of people to accept pay cuts, higher taxes & a 3rd rate health care system? Where is the morality in forcing a healthy 18 year old to pay into a health care ponzie scheme to so older drug filled hippy folks that lived very unhealthy lives don't have to pay?
And if he/she doesn't pay.... GO TO JAIL. (that is in the current HC bill)

If you want the HC situation improved, start w/ tort reform & deregulate the industry.

My life was saved 20 years ago thanks to our superior HC system with the best tech equipment in the world, MN would stand to lose the most w/ Obamacare.

What pay cuts?

Your tax dollars are already subsidizing a health care insurance system that doesn't work, but since it's in the form of corporate welfare, you pretend to be completely oblivious to it.



You must be high. You don't know what a ponzie scheme is, that much is clear. We already pay into a medicare system that takes care of folks who abused their bodies in many different ways- sports, smoking, drugs, diet, whatever. I thought your side of the fence was supposed to all about personal responsibility, individual freedom. All your other hypocrisy aside, it would be awesome to see you pull out some Mengele rationality on why people who had unhealthy (or immoral, nudge nudge, wink wink) should be shoved off of a dock.



???

Do you read this shit before you hit the submit button? Are you drunk? Do you understand the English language? Neither Tom Stoppard nor Joseph Conrad are native English speakers, and they seem to do fine.

The pay cuts doctors will be forced to take. Expect doctors to drop out, or leave the country if Obamacare is enacted.



ponzie scheme ie: Social Security. The same flawed Socialist logic will apply to Govt HC.
And look how bankrupt Govt Medicare is. Case closed.

Sry if it's so simple it doesn't make sense to you Big D!

you're still not talking about a ponzie scheme. Also, Obamacare is not socialist.

HMOs have already forced doctors to take paycuts, so, try again.

As far as technology, where do you think it comes from? Who do you think came up with the technology that saved your life? I'd be willing to bet that a large part of it came from a publicly funded University. I'd also be willing to bet that any machines that were used were in part developed in and/or built in France, Germany, or Italy.

Discussing anything with fisty is like arguing with a chicken.

You can boil down each and every subject thusly:

Republican = good.

Everything else = bad. No matter how insane or unrealistic, he will always simply subscribe to the party line. Whether or not it's good for the nation or himself.

He loves Sarah Palin though she would have him praying for his health, or having demons cast out.

The arguments he presents against healthcare reform are 100% parroting of what the scaremongers whose pockets are lined by the corrupt healthcare industry tell people like him, with no basis in fact.

Fact: Most Americans do not want the Govt. taking over the HC system. We are not all sucking on the entitlement tit yet. Even if we do get a Govt. HC system... no one here will see any improvement in their lives, just higher taxes, worse care & less freedom.

Utopians & the Govt class don't realy care about "health", they care about grabbing more power & getting some one else to pay their bills.

Perhaps, or MRI machines where developed by a company that wanted to make a profit? Or the Doctors wanted to make a good living & not be told how much they will be paid?

Obamacare= end of specialized doctors in America.

What a dunce.

public universities are privately funded, you know. many labs at universities will gladly schill for major companies - they share or cede patent rights in exchange for grants and lab equipment. Technology for medical devices in particular is mostly privately funded - i work in RnD. Part of one of the bills before congress actually wanted to tax medical device companies to cover the increased coverage of medicare, etc. if the law passes as is (doubtful), it would mean an undue burden on the big 3 ICD guys - Boston, Medtronic, st Jude, to the tune of billions - and the result would be a huge decrease in funding for RnD. so no new innovation, and job loss (read: mine). trust me, research is the first thing cut. so - loathe as i am to say this - fisty has a point - obama's plan in that particular form is NOT good and would certainly have a negative impact on medical technology.

What's the matter? Couldn't you find any pictures to back up your polling data?

If your in agreement with polls, then you rely on them.

If you disagree, then they don't matter. Remember?

Yes. And many "private" universities and research facilities operate with some form of public funding, from tax and utility breaks to land grants and research grants. I know that there's not too much of a distinction these oh-so modern days, but I also know that fisty has no clue.

Again, fisty's train of logic is fuzzy, at best. He keeps referring to some vague life-saving procedure in his past, and alluding as to how his life would have been lost in any of those awful socialist countries with crude government-run hospitals. Apparently, there was an MRI involved. There's such a huge stack of bullshit in what he's trying to say that it takes a while to parse out. I'll start with the "state-run" hospitals.

First, we already have several different types of publicly run or publicly funded hospitals; HCMC and the university would be two that leap to mind. This is completely beside the point. The current health care plan is an insurance plan, not a buyout of hospitals. It is not a universal insurance plan. It is not a single-payer system. If it were either of these latter two things, I'd actually be for it. None of those things are a takeover of hospitals by the government. None of these things will change the day-to-day operation of hospitals in the least. The government pays for road construction, private companies build the roads. The government will not set the salaries of doctors any more than they set the wages of someone who drives a back-hoe. Doctors are HUGE losers in the current system. And I do agree, some kind of tort reform needs to happen.

As far as technology: NMRI was developed by physicists from around the world*. (I'll throw links in at the bottom). I don't know if fisty realizes this, but research scientists and engineers rarely start mass manufacturing their own inventions. Maybe in fisty's McCarthy-istic world scientific research happens in one country at a time, but in the real world, international cooperatives are the norm.

As far as the actual machines; yes, a company needs to build them, at a profit. The question is to how to pay for them in the setting they need to be in. Increasingly, insurance companies (particularly HMOs) will set their own rates on such procedures, usually a lowball rate that barely includes enough for maintenance or replacement of said machine. How are hospitals supposed to stay technologically competitive in that system?

The choice, in my eyes, is a entirely a moral one. Every person in this country should have access to top-quality health care, regardless of their own financial situation. Hospitals and doctors should have one obligation- to make sick people well. This requires money, money that is not coming from the system we have now. Private insurers are screwing doctors and patients, pocketing money from both sides while not providing the services their members pay them for.

I don't like the system that's getting put through now. It's byzantine, restrictive, and doesn't go nearly far enough. It's almost as bad as the "patient's bill of rights" (lol). When two sides are being set up to fight eachother, look in the middle to see who's making the money. However, calling Obamamcare "a socialist ponzi scheme" just flaunts your ignorance about socialisn and ponzi schemes.



A doctor on HMOs:
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... ekey=51364
The guys who invented MRI-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Lauterbur
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Carr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Vahan_Damadian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladislav_ ... (physicist)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Mansfield
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Bloch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Mills_Purcell

Lieberman Digs In on Public Option

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1259004 ... TopStories

Go Joe!

That is good news, and the moraly correct one!

The pay offs & back deals going on for this HC bill is quite sickening. Obamas Chicago buddy Burris gets a slap on the wrist for his corruption mess, 300 mil for Landrue.
Dems know voting for this "slush fund" will get them fired, as it should.

I need this Right arm:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/ ... 5509.shtml

Why doesn't drok buy me one? Why is he so moraly cruel?

It barely survived a cloture vote. In addition to Lieberman, at least 3 Dems have indicated having no tolerance for the "public option". I doubt state opt-out or the "trigger" option will work. Reid would have to bypass senate procedure. 51-59 would mean passage as a budgetary measure. Bad move if he does. I think the debate will switch in the near future to a more direct approach to health insurance reform. I personally will not take a position until I see details after the original bill fails. Needless to say, your article is pertinent. It signals what will not happen.

JN

Lieberman is a putz. I'm not surprised you guys admire a total putz.

Lieberman can make the right call... some times. Mcain can drive me crazy the same way Joe does for you zom!

because you are too stupid to live.

ETA: FWIW, I don't much like the bills that are being put forth either.

I don't think anyone does at this point. Lot of good points raised here. The cloture vote was just somewhat of a game changer politically. I hope they end up doing more good than harm. We'll see.

JN

This would make Charles Ponzi sad.

Didn't I say somewhere that government involvement will not simplify anything? And didn't you say that it would?

Or "The Ponz" for short
AAAAAAAYYYYYYY!
Sit on it ya nerd!!!

no, I said it could. I also have no faith in our government. IMHO, our Republic is failing.

Nice to know this is one of the guys taking control of our "new & improved" health care system... I feel better already!

The Senator speaks the truth. It's the Republicans that are preventing bipartisan health care reform.

Single payer health care now!

Abolish corporate personhood!

Thats a laugh,, the Democrats don't need Republicans to pass their "behind closed doors" HC bill... Republicans are not invited, remember?

Lets watch Obama LIE thru his teeth about HC "transparency":

http://blip.tv/play/hJNRgbu%2BTwI%2Em4v

& behind closed doors the GOP amendments will most likely get stripped out. (not that you where not aware of that FACT ZOM)
Any link to that Soros backed blog quote?


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing ... obama.html

I'm sorry that you don't understand the difference between facts and opinions.

At least I'm not “F—ing retarded,”!

I, like everyone else here, would like to see hard documented proof of that.

No outrage from the idiot Palin regarding the head of the GOP though:

Jon Stewart must be proud! But who woulda thunk Rham & Rush would have anything in common??

Turns out Paiin used to cross over to Canada when she needed health care, but of course now it's all about DOWN WITH SOCIALIST HEALTH CARE

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/0 ... 90080.html

What a joke.

Yes, until her and her husband got good-paying UNION jobs with benefits.

Total joke. A very ignorant bigmouth.

Sounds like Obama needs to send Rham into more shower stalls?!

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... votes.html

Here, you love the crackpot Massa so much:

Yup, I am very aware Massa is one of your guys, even he is turning against BHO.
You can see what he sez about Rush on Glen Beck tonight!

Back to my "I don't care who makes money off the solution, just get it solved" argument
I don't give a fuck if the same peoplke who are ripping us off get new customers as long as I can afford to go to a doctor or not risk lifelong indentured servitude if I happen to end up in an emergency room

I also don't care that slave owners made money after the emancipation or that Ford made money after Henry stopped having strikers beaten or even Michael Vick playing in the NFL
The point is that the American culture and conservatives in particular are so fucking obsessed with their own percieved moral high ground that they ignore the real facts of life in favor of their utopian concepts of right and wrong

Quit trying to achieve absolute victories where the bad guys get punished and we all hug in the streets
And give me some cheap fucking healthcare for fuck's sake
I'd love to see every last person who has wronged the American people punished for their sins but, unfortunately, we would have absolutely no one left to govern us

I don't want them punished, I just want them held accountable and, above all
I want them to do the fucking job that we pay them to do

Health Care is not a right.

But if you realy want your Cuban style tax payer paid for HC, you better oppose Obamacare because there is no single payer plan.

Eventually, the USA will have excellent National Health Care, like the rest of the civilized world.

But keep on squawking the lines they're feeding you about it if it makes you feel good.

BRaawwk!

We already have the best HC in the world, one must question the morality of the politicians who want to degrade it.

Possibly the best quality of physically possible health care, although I'd like to see a source on even that, but certainly not the best availability of health care in the world.

even say we do have the best health care in the world, that is no reason to try not to improve it. the simple fact that millions of people in this country simply cannot afford to get the health care they need is obviously a flaw, so why not attempt to fix it? any organization in existence looking to progress forward promotes the concept of continuous improvement to make itself a more viable entity.
many people have said such things much better than i ever could, but to me it really all just comes down to this: to willfully ignore a problem and not even to attempt to reform such a large flaw in a system, that in itself is a sign of degradation.
whatever the solution, open discourse is essential to assure that any changes are actually improvements and those that simply scoff and jest at proposals without fair and unbiased evaluation are detrimental to the longevity of the organization because they are putting themselves before it.
it's not about you. it's not about me. it's about everyone.
yes, it is true that health care is not specifically a right, but to have a system where millions do not have it tends to have a slight impact on those inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. people shouldn't have to choose between medication or medical procedures and their next meal or a roof over their head. they should not have a shorter lifespan simply because they cannot afford to live.
/rant

Actually, we do have the best health care in the world. Too bad nobody can afford it.

[quote="2fisted"] Health Care is not a right. [quote]


Agreed
For instance
I can afford (and have applied for) Minnesota care
I did not apply for the free healthcare because I am not so low that I can't pay for my own healthcare
I can afford $25 a month but, in the non-socialist state of Texas (and many others in this country)
1- Getting a job PERIOD right now is next to impossible much yet one that is full time and/or offers insurance
2- The rates and deductables offered by these plans are out of my reach, seeing as I was sacrificing at least 1/4 of my paycheck a month just to stay on the plan in the first place

No reasonable person in this argument is talking about free health care
Left or right of this issue, if you base your position on the idea of completely free healthcare to fit and able citiens then you are a fanatic
Free healthcare should only be for those who are helpless or defenseless
I don't even think I personally know someone who actually thinks all healthcare should be free

Unfortunately, the ultra liberal and ultra conservatives do us a disservice when they recieve the lion's shgare of media hyped coverage and define the issue based purely on what causes the most ratings

So
No, Not a right but
I should have the right to consumer protection
No one has a problem with my right to low prices at the the mall and yet the one thing that is most essential to my health and well being has been priced out of my reach

precisely! it will still have to be paid for. the main problem is lack of availability to those who do not have the means to afford the care they need.
it should not be about scoring points on one side of the aisle or the other. no issue should be. the crappy part about it all is that is what all of these issues become...political posturing so that it makes it look like something is actually getting done. if no compromises are made and you just have people looking for face-time on CSPAN, everyone loses.

note: i added the italicized phrase to Rockula!'s original quote to avoid confusion with the second line i quoted, even though it seems obviously inferred.

I think there is agreement that we would all like to see HC insurance costs go down. & there have been ways of doing this floated by many that are based on reforms that cost little to the taxpayer.
But the current operators in power want nothing to do with that, they are happy to blame the big ins. companies while giving them hundreds of billions.

Does anyone realy even know what is in this senate bill?

blaming big ins.=easy We're talking about faceless corporations underwritten by larger faceless corporations which focus on bottomline profit and stock prices instead of the one goal of health insurance. They complain about not making any money. Well, maybe they're in the wrong business. Maybe there needs to be competetive, interstate insurance available instead of the current laws banning us from buying insurance from states with companies offering lower premiums thn our own. Maybe "previous existing condition" clauses should be outlawed. Maybe the ability to DROP customers for filing a valid claim against their insurance should also be outlawed.

But you know what? In conversation after conversation Reps in power aren't offering these kinds of solutions. They're only interested in blocking as much legislation as possible so they have a shot at the throne, or at least a better chance of getting re-elected. This time around Repubicans are the political gridlock over which Reagan was known to kvetch.

I'm not the guy screaming "Yes we can"on the strret corner. I'm the guy with no health insurance. I'm the guy who is in severe pain from a car accident, and if MN hadn't been a no-fault state I would have about $15,000 in current medical bills sitting in front of me.

I currently can't afford decent insurance. Blue Cross want $400 per month for a basic plan.

Unlike Fisty and his callous Republican masters, I would like to see each and every American citizen able to afford health insurance, or at least be covered in some manner. Like the rest of the civilized nations of the world.

But then the argument is always "Who's going to pay for it?"

Well, we paid for the useless illegal war against Iraq and I didn't hear any protests from Fisty or his heroes. And we keep throwing money away in multiple useless wars.

turns out hospitals are cheaper than tanks.

The list of useless things we have thrown $ at is endless. I personaly would rather see MN tax dollars go to HCMC than a new stadium. But lower taxes across the board would be even better.
Then again, most civilized cities have a new stadium.

Buk buk brawwwk! LOWER MY TAXES!

i wholeheartedly agree with you on this, except for the word "current". this statement would ring true in any administration and has been true since shortly after insurance appeared on the scenes.




and since no one answered your question (which i find amusing since you get accused of side-stepping questions yourself)...
i'm sure none of us have read it, just as i am fairly confident that pretty much all of congress hasn't either.
[sarcasm]at least there are people who can tell us what it says, so we can make our minds up for ourselves![/sarcasm]

I do think some big Ins. companies would rather not be able to commerce across state lines, god forbid they have to compete against other companies!

A+ Post, sir.

The truth is that this is a multi-faceted issue that is being made into a couple of bullet points. This does a dissservice to the entire idea of health care reform. In order for real reform to happen, there is going to have to be a complete overhaul- and there's too much money/power at stake for that to ever happen.

The likely result (as I see it) will be watered-down mush that does nothing to fix the problem. The good news is that there will be enough concessions to allow politicians on both sides to claim victory - whatever the outcome.

~€~

methinks Ether hit the nail squarely on the head with that last post.
sad but true...

Exactly. It became obvious early on just how much meat would be striiped out of the bill when some moderate Dems weren't sold on Obama's proposal. The end result has become so little about opening up ins markets and providing an option for low income workers. Now we have language, such as "mandatory" insurance for every citizen which levies a fine against your income if you can't afford ins. While healthcare efficiency may rise via some of the remaining language, it won't create noticeable change for low- to middle- income families.

I really do support the ideals of where the reform started. I backed away from where it's going, though, for all the reasons Ether stated.

if any one is interested.. Here's how the spending of the healthcare bill will ACTUALLY play out.

As stated by myself and Ether, the bill lost its nuts, but the money debate has been rendered moot.